Let's have a discussion

"mcseanerson" (mcseanerson) 12/07/2016 at 11:50 • Filed to: None

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How do you define a wagon vs. a crossover? What’s the difference?

After !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! the comments quickly turned into whether or not the current !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (It’s a crossover, just so you know where I stand.)

The comments arguing that it is a crossover are not stating that a lifted wagon is not a wagon, just that once you !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! it ceases to be a wagon and becomes a crossover.

The opposing argument is that a crossover is not wagon based but a truck based off of a car platform.

What say you Oppo? Is the current Outback a lifted wagon or a crossover? What cars blur the lines of crossover for you and where do they fall? Maybe you think the Mercedes GLA is really just a hatchback with a tiny lift?

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 11:54

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I’d also like to know what people think about the Flex. Ford called it a crossover, most websites classified it as an SUV (lol) but we called ours a wagon.

LongbowMkII > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 11:55

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if it sits higher than the sedan it is based off, its a crossover. including the S60 XC. Not all AMC eagles were wagons.

Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 11:57

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It’s definitely a crossover. The roof is too high for a wagon.

jasmits > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 11:57

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The lines are just too blured at this point for an easy definition. To me it all has to do with the ratio of the length and overall height. Crossovers are shorter, with a bit more ground clearance and a much higher roofline. I think right now, the Outback is more or less the exact center point between a wagon and a crossover. If the length/height is lower than the Outback’s: definite crossover(so, shorter, taller or both). If the length/height is higher than the Outback’s(so longer, shorter or both): definite wagon.

mcseanerson > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/07/2016 at 11:58

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I consider the Flex a crossover. I can definitely see how it leans toward being a wagon considering it’s overall dimensions it’s not that tall for how long it is but still too tall to be a wagon.

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 11:58

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My Juke is crossover, but called a wagon on my insurance slip.

mcseanerson > LongbowMkII 12/07/2016 at 11:59

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I have no issue with lifted wagons. To me that would be like saying anyone who puts a lift kit on an old Volvo wagon has suddenly invented a new crossover.

duurtlang > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 11:59

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With a wagon there’s typically a hatchback/liftback/sedan it’s based on. The wagon isn’t significantly taller than this hatch/sedan and the front half of the car is identical-ish.

Hatch:

Sedan:

Wagon:

Crossover:

Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:00

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If there is a jalop/oppo circle jerk, its a wagon. If there is not, its a crossover

Wacko > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:00

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To me a crossover is a wagon with a factory liftkit.

So cross overs are all wagons, but not all wagons are crossovers....

Arrivederci > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:01

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I consider the Outback a lifted wagon, since it’s legitimately a lifted wagon. I consider Crossovers vehicles that are based on a car chassis, but are standalone models built to resemble actual SUVs.

Obviously lots of grey area and room for interpretation.

mcseanerson > Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig 12/07/2016 at 12:01

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Now are you saying overall roof height or distance of roof from floor? For instance is a Volvo XC70 a crossover or a lifted wagon?

mcseanerson > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/07/2016 at 12:02

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My Soul is classified as a truck on it’s registration.

Arrivederci > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/07/2016 at 12:02

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I consider it a boxy wagon - it doesn’t really sit any higher than a standard car, does it?

LongbowMkII > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:04

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modification hardly counts. in that case Red Bull invented the compact truck with giant can class.

from the factory. the V70 XC is a crossover too.  

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:04

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Outback’s a wagon. It isn’t pretending to be a truck.

LongbowMkII > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 12/07/2016 at 12:05

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my murano was defined as a Sportwagon

HammerheadFistpunch > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:05

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I’ve also been in discussion on this very thing lately. Its my opinion that a crossover, as a class, is a blend of sport utility and passenger vehicle in varying degrees but that favors sport utility traits: all weather capability, increased ride height, increased utility, etc.

That having been said, “crossover” is a broad term that encompasses more than the “class”. i.e. an El Camino or any ute is a “crossover” because it lives in between the worlds of truck and car.

This is the trouble with defining the class using a broad term. In one respect, the outback HAS to be a crossover because it combines traits of the class of crossovers and the class of wagons. On the other hand, its doesn’t neatly fit into the “class” as evidenced by the question itself.

The problem isn’t with the vehicle, the problem is with the terms...sort of like music genres...because its easy to transcend the terms/genres with minor changes.

For this particular car, I would say its a crossover, because its in between one class and another, but that only puts it into a class that is defined as not being one thing or another.

The obvious solutions are:

1. create new “classes” for every variation

2. ignore it entirely

Route 1 is where music went, and it sure didn’t help clear things up...im leaning towards route 2 on account of laziness.

Wacko > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:06

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then you should have to pay the chicken tax???

LongbowMkII > Wacko 12/07/2016 at 12:06

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what about crossover ‘coupes’ lifted liftbacks basically.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:07

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The only thing clear here, ironically, is that the distinctions are very blurry. To assign things to one or the other depends on whether you use an inclusive categorization for crossover or wagon, or both, or neither.

Is it a crossover until proven otherwise (which seems to be your framework), a wagon until proven otherwise, or in some conflict? Not surprising that some people who categorize wagons inclusively would disagree with you.

Or, you can reject the whole idea of crossover as anything but a subset of wagon in most cases, saving the most extremely truckish for the SUV category. That’s more or less what I do by habit when not calling >2 door crossovers compact vans to be contrary.

LongbowMkII > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 12/07/2016 at 12:08

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sure they do.

and 100 more > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:10

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I asked this same question awhile ago.

The results: depends on who you ask.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:11

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I look at it in terms of seating position. A lifted wagon becomes the same as a crossover if it has that same upright seating position as an SUV or van.

macanamera > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:11

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1. Ride height.

2. Overall length

3. Angle of the hatch glass. V70= wagon, GLA=crossover

macanamera > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:11

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That is absolutely one million percent a wagon.

Wacko > LongbowMkII 12/07/2016 at 12:12

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if it’s a liftback cross over it’s more in the wagon category to me than coupe.

every rule has an exception

like the suzuki x90

it’s a cross over, and it’s a coupe. it’s  not a wagon and not a sedan.

McMike > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:13

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The only people that can answer that question are the people in the brand’s marketing department. Crossover? SUV? SportsWagon? Alltracking outdoorsy vehicle?

Just about all of them are nothing but wagons. They’re based on a existing car platform, with a slight lift, bigger wheels, and optional AWD. None (most) of them are not better off road than the platform they are based on.

The term “SUV” is synonymous these days with anything with ground clearance. It’s lost all meaning - like “Drone,” “DONK,” “Coupe” and “Sports car.”

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Arrivederci 12/07/2016 at 12:16

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It doesn’t ride considerably higher, no, but it has a higher, SUV-like upright seating position and a taller body.

Andy Sheehan, StreetsideStig > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:17

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Roof to floor. The XC70 looks like a wagon, though it would take some measurement, I think.

I mean, I haven’t really come up with a ratio. I think it’s effectively moot, though. People used to buy lifted wagons so they could take their wagons off-road. Now they buy them for the same reason people buy crossovers: They’re easier to get the kids in and out of.

Besides, other than the XC70, are there any more lifted wagons still being made?

For Sweden > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/07/2016 at 12:18

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The Flex is the Pinnacle of American Ingenuity.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > For Sweden 12/07/2016 at 12:19

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It is?

mcseanerson > Wacko 12/07/2016 at 12:19

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Good question.

Wacko > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:21

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i think you shouldn’t ask the government, but since it does come with at least 5 seats, I think it’s in the loophole.

mcseanerson > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 12/07/2016 at 12:21

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My measuring stick is that a wagon is a wagon until the distance from the floor to the roof exceeds an amount that my eye recognizes it as a crossover. I have never measured this amount or noted the distance on crossovers, I just know it when I see it.

LongbowMkII > Wacko 12/07/2016 at 12:22

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In researching the origin of that and the sidekick theyre based on, i discovered its a japanese interpretation of the Lada Niva.

crossover, suv whatever. To Craigslist!!!!11

Wacko > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:24

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the real difference in a Wagon or a Crossover is what the Marketing department decided to call it. Just like hatchbacks, sportbacks, liftbacks.....

For Sweden > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/07/2016 at 12:25

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Yes, because it’s the best Volvo S80 wagon

Wacko > LongbowMkII 12/07/2016 at 12:26

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i so wanted a X90 back in the 90s, but my lust for civic hatchbacks was greater.

LongbowMkII > macanamera 12/07/2016 at 12:26

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then so is the XC90. and all crossovers.

LongbowMkII > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:28

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wagons are pornography?

we’re making progress!

El Rocko > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 12/07/2016 at 12:37

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winner

 > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:39

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To be a wagon there has to be a sedan version of the same car.

 > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:40

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It’s a wagon. Basically a V70 but with AWD.

Probenja > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 12:58

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To me the Outback is now pretty much a crossover because it doesn’t have a wagon version, the older ones were lifted wagons because it was just that, same with the Volvo XC70, it shares almost every single body panel with the wagon version.

The new Outback however doesn’t share a lot with either the Levorg or the Exiga which are the most similar Subaru vehicles to the Outback.

The GLA is a Crossover because it isn’t a straight up lifted A-Class because they changed a lot of body panels and structure, not even the window line is the same!

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 13:00

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I consider the GLA a hatchback. The Outback is a wagon. The Forester is a crossover.

Just because they market them as something else doesn’t make them something else. Most of this garbage is to avoid fuel consumption laws...

Textured Soy Protein > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 13:04

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The Outback is a lifted wagon (with an asterisk), and whether a car is a lifted wagon/hatch vs. crossover has nothing to do with dimensions.

A lifted wagon or hatch has a near-identical twin in the lineup, i.e. the exact same body shell exists in regular-car form, but is also sold with vaguely trucky add-ons like a higher ride height, truckier tires, and extra body cladding.

Crossovers, even if they share a platform underneath with one or more regular cars, have no regular car counterpart with which they share a shell.

The reason the Outback is now a lifted wagon* is that Subaru stopped selling the regular Legacy wagon. But the Outback has the same front clip, dash, front doors, and running gear as the Legacy sedan so it’s not a crossover. The differences between the Outback and Legacy are roughly the same as the differences between a Legacy wagon (if it existed) and the Legacy sedan would be. The only things that makes the Outback not a straight-up Legacy wagon is the shocks, springs, tires, and cladding.

Which interior is the Legacy, and which is the Outback?

By this rule, lifted hatches and wagons are:

Audi Allroad
Fiat 500L Trekking
Fiat Panda 4x4
Fiat Panda Cross
Infiniti QX30
SEAT Leon X-PERIENCE
Skoda Octavia Scout
Subaru Crosstrek
Subaru Outback
Volkswagen Golf Alltrack
Volvo XC70
Volvo V90 Cross Country

Dusty Ventures > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 13:27

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I’ve been of the opinion that the Outback became a crossover with the 2010 model, and I’ve been trying to figure out exactly why. I don’t know if it’s the height vs length, the body height vs length, the shape/size of the glass, the shape/size of the pillars, some combination thereof, or something else entirely. Short of taking a tape measure and a level to a late model Outback I may never fully understand the why, all I know is when my eyes land on an Outback my brain registers crossover.

Dusty Ventures > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 13:28

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PT Cruiser is also classified as a truck, despite being on a Neon platform

m-b-w loves his SUBAROO > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 13:47

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Personally I consider it a lifted wagon. It shares a powertrain with the Legacy and has the same body structure. The only main differences are body cladding, ride height and a long roof. Just my opinion.

mcseanerson > Dusty Ventures 12/07/2016 at 13:47

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And it drives like one too. A really really shitty truck.

mcseanerson > Dusty Ventures 12/07/2016 at 13:49

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I’m pretty sure it’s floor to roof distance. Wagons, even lifted wagons, still have pretty similar figures to sedans. Crossovers are closer to SUVs and minivans.

macanamera > LongbowMkII 12/07/2016 at 13:49

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? The XC90 is an SUV

JRapp: now as good as new again > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 13:51

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Can you lower a crossover to make a wagon?

If lowering the vehicle makes it a wagon, it was a wagon to start with. If lowering it makes it a lowered turd, it was a crossover to start with...

shop-teacher > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/07/2016 at 13:52

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I say it’s a crossover, but at the same time it is the closest thing we have these days to a traditional full size wagon. I freaking love the Flex, and still hope to buy one.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > shop-teacher 12/07/2016 at 13:59

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We had a complaint or two about it, but most of those complaints would’ve been addressed by the EcoBoost and AWD. Overall, a terrific car.

Dusty Ventures > LongbowMkII 12/07/2016 at 14:03

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Are you calling my car a crossover?

I’m not inviting you to any more rallies

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 14:10

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I think it is a lift combined with a shorter rear. Wagons tend to have more behind the rear doors making them look longer and shorter while crossovers have less behind the doors making them look shorter and taller.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Dusty Ventures 12/07/2016 at 14:13

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It’s a crossover between a family car and an STI.

Dusty Ventures > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 12/07/2016 at 14:22

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You get all of Longbow’s invites

LongbowMkII > macanamera 12/07/2016 at 14:42

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its a crossover based on the S80.

LongbowMkII > Dusty Ventures 12/07/2016 at 14:44

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NOOOOES. Burned by my own hot taeks!

LongbowMkII > Dusty Ventures 12/07/2016 at 14:58

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The shoe fits. If all crossovers had manual transmissions and upgraded turbos the world would be a better place. Not all crossovers are soul sucking appliances. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a crossover particularly when it’s better for rally support than the equivalent wagon. If you never see even a gravel road... then wagon>crossover. application is key

sedan, wagon or crossover with manual+turbo=good

IanZ - limited-slip indifferential > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 16:51

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I have a problem with set metrics because there will always be that one car that breaks the rule. But as a rule of thumb, a wagon has to based on a sedan. The Outback is a lifted wagon. It just doesn’t have the right proportions to be a CUV.

One of these things, is not like the other.

IanZ - limited-slip indifferential > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/07/2016 at 16:53

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The Flex is a tricky one, but I would still call it a crossover.

IanZ - limited-slip indifferential > Supreme Chancellor and Glorious Leader SaveTheIntegras 12/07/2016 at 16:55

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Bingo.

Autofixation > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 17:55

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GLA and Crosstrek are lifted hatches. We had quite the discussion on Oppositetalk on Facebook about the Crosstrek.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/700687349990959?view=permalink&id=1224735170919505

As far as the Outback is concerned, I’m so torn that I can’t voice an opinion.

Aaaron > mcseanerson 12/07/2016 at 19:14

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I’m no expert, but I personally believe it matters more about how it drives than the actual dimensions. If it feels like a car when you drive it, it’s a wagon. If it feels more like an SUV when you drive it, it’s a crossover.

bhtooefr > mcseanerson 12/08/2016 at 11:11

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So there’s really five classes of car that need to be considered, here. Those five classes of car are the station wagon, the crossover, the SUV, the minivan, and the hatchback. (Thanks to the Nissan Juke and the succession of subcompact crossovers that have come since, hatchbacks are in play, too.)

It’s worth noting that these lines have been blurred for quite a while, though. Station wagons, for instance, were originally wooden bodies built on the back of trucks to make a cheap people and cargo hauler. “Suburbans” were once a class of vehicle that was used interchangeably with “station wagon” (although post-war, that quickly became anachronistic). And, it’s worth remember that truck platforms back then were rather closely related to the car platforms, and both were rather tall, although suburbans could be quite a bit taller.

I’ll use the most famous of the suburbans, the Chevrolet Suburban, and I’ve got specs for 1937 - at least a loaded spec for the Carryall Suburban, so I’ll use loaded for the cars, too. The Chevrolet Standard and Master was 66 7/8" tall for most models, compared to the Suburban at... if I’m reading this awful scan right, 77 1/4" tall loaded: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/chevyresto/3711.htm

Also consider that unloaded, the cars themselves were at 69 3/4" tall - very, very deep into what we’d now consider crossover territory.

In this environment, the modern term “crossover” simultaneously makes no sense at all, and describes suburbans exactly. Yet, suburbans were some of the first of what we’d now call SUVs.

In the 1940s, car and truck platforms divided, and then in after the war, cars went low and sleek, causing a division of the station wagon and the suburban - by the 1950s, a suburban was a truck-based wagon (SUV not having been coined yet), whereas just a station wagon was assumed to be car-based (and station wagons ended up keeping wood-based styling tropes, in some cases, into the 1990s). And, note that station wagons often got lifted roofs compared to their sedan counterparts, even in this 1950s to 1990s era, so something like the high-roof Outback doesn’t necessarily count as a crossover - I mean, there was even a high-roof Legacy wagon.

Now, where does the minivan come into this? After all, isn’t it a derivative of the van, which is a fundamentally different vehicle from a suburban or a wagon? Thing is... the van is an offshoot of things like tall delivery trucks and sedan deliveries (which were basically cargo-optimized suburbans, but on the car frame). And, passenger vans often got marketed as wagons, in some cases, even having the fake wood treatment that wagons got. Even the original Chrysler minivans were called wagons at times, and the Town & Country nameplate was a wagon nameplate, applied to a minivan!

So, how I’d classify the vehicles... I’d first look at height for the base model. If you’re above 65" tall, you’re definitely a crossover, SUV, or minivan. Under 60" tall, you’re definitely a wagon or hatchback. In between... you’re probably a crossover, SUV, minivan, or maybe a tall hatchback (basically a short minivan).

Next, I’d look at ground clearance, for the vehicles that are at least 60" tall. If it’s under 6", it’s almost certainly a minivan. If it’s over 8", it’s almost certainly a crossover or SUV. (Again, base model - lifting a car doesn’t change what it is, I’d argue.) Alternately, one could look at interior height, but I’m not sure where to define that metric.

Now, to look at edge cases - vehicles that fall in the gaps. For instance, the Pontiac Montana and Aztek both clearly are over 65" tall (the Aztek’s actually shorter, though), but the Aztek has a bit more ground clearance... but both are in the 6-8" ground clearance range. At that point, I’d use styling tropes and the door configuration. Blockier, less streamlined styling, body cladding (especially if it’s black plastic), conventional second-row doors, third-row availability and design, and available AWD affect this, although you can have some of those elements and still be a minivan, or none of those elements and still be a crossover. And, for the 60-65" no man’s land for height, those same elements would be used - I consider the Prius v to be just barely a wagon largely due to its door configuration (although it’s straddling the wagon/minivan line) and (in the US market) lack of a third row, whereas the similarly-sized (although a bit taller) Mazda5 is definitely a minivan.

Finally, as far as wagon vs. hatchback, or minivan vs. tall hatchback... there’s Torch’s guidelines here: http://jalopnik.com/5872562/what-makes-a-wagon-a-wagon - but I’m not sure they’re actually accurate, I want a length requirement, because there’s a lot of stuff that I think would fall on the tall hatchback side, despite having the window and the roof.

As far as the Outback goes, though? I still can’t figure it out. It’s a Legacy derivative, but I don’t think there’s a Legacy Wagon for it to be a lifted version of, in any market, any more? And, it’s certainly got every other trope that defines a crossover, AND crosses both my 8" ground clearance and 65" height thresholds.

bhtooefr > bhtooefr 12/08/2016 at 11:34

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And I’ve just thought of another application for Torch’s roof length test, for determining whether a vehicle is a crossover or minivan. Third row in place, does the roof cover 50% of the cargo length? If not, it’s definitely a crossover - that’s not a hard test for an actual minivan to pass. And, that means that the Model X isn’t a minivan - it doesn’t even pass when the third row isn’t in place, for that matter, due to its liftback.

sn4cktimes > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 12/08/2016 at 21:11

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Wagony-shaped crossover.

sn4cktimes > LongbowMkII 12/08/2016 at 21:13

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I’ve got an 88' AMC Eagle Wagon... and I’d almost put it in crossover territory.

sn4cktimes > sn4cktimes 12/08/2016 at 21:15

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Side note: my 07' 2door Jeep Wrangler said “Station Wagon” on my registry papers... so official systems definitely have different opinions than the public.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Wacko 01/30/2017 at 10:28

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No because it has four seats.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > mcseanerson 01/30/2017 at 10:35

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I think we can make the desiring factor be weather or not there is a non-offroady wagon,or sedan variant, that shares the same body. For example, the XC90 I’d unchanged (besides ubiquitous body cladding) from the V, and S models. However the Outback, or quite sometime has been entirely different from the Legacy, along with the Legacy not being available as a wagon.

Another example would be the Ford Edge, yes it’s a Taurus underneath but it’s body verses greatly from its “car” counterpart. Also I think to really be a crossover it needs to be availabile with AWD, which is why I think it’s ridiculous that the Soul is marketed as one.

The real Question then is what is a Flex. Because although it’s not a wagon exactly, it also is low to the ground and marketed with no off-road presents.